Outlandish Theories? Spoilers for Subjugation and Sennadar universes

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thejank
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Outlandish Theories? Spoilers for Subjugation and Sennadar universes

Post by thejank »

I've been reading a lot of Sanderson lately, which means my brain is trying to catch as many things that intertwine between books as it can. I've started to do the same with Fel's work now.

Could it be that Tarrin Kael has visited the Subjugation universe before?
Tarrin
had walked worlds where science had advanced to the point where men sailed ships of
metal hrough the vast void of space and traveled from world to world, and wielded
weapons of such terrible power that made his own magic look pitiful by comparison.
This really seems like a reference to me of the Karinne's and their ships/weapons. The end of Revolution seems like there could be some crossover as well. Jason solves the riddle of the mirror and the Parri shaman seems to have more knowledge of the universe/multiverse than she lets on.
She opened her eyes without moving, her eyes almost luminous in the starlight that managed to peek through the canopy above. “He has solved the riddle of the mirror,” she said aloud. “He has taken his first step down the path of truth.”
There was no reply to her announcement, at least not one that could be heard.
“He will be ready,” she said further, taking her hands off her knees, her short tail shifting behind her. “Is there no other way?’
Silence was her answer. But it seemed an answer she did not want to hear.
“I understand.”
The above passage makes me think that the Parri shaman can commune with the overgod or Cassiter (as Tarrin sees him). It's familiar in the sense that it's almost like when the Deva, Mother Wynn, Ch'Belle speak to Him.

So with that being said, do you think the Karinnes doing something that threatens the balance? Is Jason a being spun out of entropy, like we've seen with other characters in Fel's universe? Is the Parri shaman Mother Wynn in disguise?

From Demon's Bane chapter 2
"Oh, I am who you think I am, boy," she told him with a hard look. "I am Mother Wynn. Me being here
seems impossible to you because you lack the ability to understand the true nature of things. Or maybe you
just don't want to understand."
The most outlandish theory that I have is the Lieutenant Gen is actually Tarrin in disguise (this is the most unlikely).


What fun/outlandish theories do you have regarding Fel's stories/universes?
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Fel
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Re: Outlandish Theories? Spoilers for Subjugation and Sennadar universes

Post by Fel »

Tarrin has been to the Subjugation universe.

You've already seen him. You just didn't know it at the time.

And you will see him again.

You know I just couldn't resist doing it. ;)
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Re: Outlandish Theories? Spoilers for Subjugation and Sennadar universes

Post by JNMC »

I was just thinking about what would bring Tarrin to the Subjugation universe, and I still can't come up with anything better than what I think I posted once before. Someone monkeys about with time the way it has been explained should not be done -- stopping or reversing it iirc. The caused rift in space, which is stationary in an absolute manner, is or would be (depending on whether Tarrin would be in prevention or punishment/recovery mode) in the path of the nearby galactic black hole. The resultant ultranova would be bad enough, but it interacts with the spatial rift to cause massive spatial fractures throughout the galactic cluster, causing the catastrophic destruction of more galactic cores....


The last time something this catastrophic happened, The GoG's had to insert himself as the voice of the original and new purposes of the universe, create a new world for Belgarion to stand on...
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Re: Outlandish Theories? Spoilers for Subjugation and Sennadar universes

Post by Fel »

It's not quite so convoluted as that.

It boils down to a very simple concept, one that explains why Tarrin has been there, and will return: the Balance is threatened, and much as what happened in the Firestaff series, the correction to this imbalance has to develop over time. In other words, what's going on there is "the long game."

In fact, it started about...40,000 years ago.

Exactly how the Balance is threatened, and how this long game plays out, will unfold in Revelation. Thus, why it's called "revelation." ;)

As you can tell, the world of Subjugation is indeed part of the greater "Tarrinverse," but I'll admit that it didn't start that way. I started incorporating this concept into the overall story at the end of Insurrection. So, it has been part of the overall plot for pretty much the entirety of the series.
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thejank
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Re: Outlandish Theories? Spoilers for Subjugation and Sennadar universes

Post by thejank »

In fact, it started about...40,000 years ago.
So if I'm remembering correctly, when Songa is telling Jason that Aria isn't technically Faey, they have genetic records that they can trace back 40,000 years or so to when the Faey were almost wiped out and there were only X amount of breeding pairs left. Am I on the right path here?

If you had to say the Tarrin-verse is a straight timeline (no time fuckery), where does the subjugation fit in the timeline? Before or after "A Simple Task"? Feel free to give some vague answer too, I don't want to ruin anything that may come about in the future.
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Re: Outlandish Theories? Spoilers for Subjugation and Sennadar universes

Post by Not a ID »

thejank wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:03 pm I've been reading a lot of Sanderson lately, which means my brain is trying to catch as many things that intertwine between books as it can. I've started to do the same with Fel's work now.

Could it be that Tarrin Kael has visited the Subjugation universe before?
Maybe? (Well, Fel already confirmed it in response to you)

And the two large quote blocks from me aren't the first time the possible (now confirmed) cross-over has been discussed.
Not a ID wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:02 am Might want to consider that Subjugation may itself be a "forbidden prime" and that the Galaxy of Zealots they were alerted to existing is the reason why.

The question then becomes one of where their "portal" to the wider multiverse is, who has been minding it in the interim, and where they are located.

Given both the Parri and the Kimdori, as well as the Kypan Void(which may not be as devoid of "advanced life" as we think, they just don't want to be found); I'm inclined to suspect the entry point is located somewhere in the Milky Way. Whether it has been there from the start, or was moved there at some point is another question.
Not a ID wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:48 am
kyli wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:51 amWell it could also be possible that they are a Universe so far from the Core that there is no magic from the core at all and the gateways are closed, like that world at the beginning of the "A Simple Task" short story. Maybe the psychic powers are a power different and unrelated to regular magic that doesn't rely on proximity to the Core in order to work.
They could be further from the Core as well, but you have me going back to some older theories in regards to the Kimdori being this "world's" Entropics with the role of maintaining balance, and the fact that they're present in the Milky Way and not elsewhere tends to suggest that the Kimdori were placed there to help defend something in the Milky Way.

That Earth, and the Humans + Faey are evidently factoring into this "game" somehow also would point to "ground zero" being near Earth. And as Earth also happens to lie on the edge of the Kypan Void, which has been remarked on previously as being an unusual sector of space both for it's lack of advanced civilizations inside of it, and lack of potentially habitable worlds of note. It could be claimed that someone either "removed" such worlds, or "hid" them so they couldn't be found "until the time was right." (We also happen to know that the Kimdori are very good at hiding things!)

And this also takes us back to the Kimdori again because our little corner of the Galaxy was where the Kimdori were also focusing most of their efforts and attention. Now there is a little bit of chicken and the egg that can be played in that regard as it relates to the Faey in particular. But it is entirely possible that the Kimdori are still keeping secrets from even Jason and they know some additional things about that region of space they haven't shared with anyone else, and may also be working to try to protect to some degree. But as the void is now about to be surrounded by "cousins" to the Kimdori, such secrecy efforts are now less viable going forward. A second avenue also available is that Zaa may drop another bomb on Jason after the Kimdori notice that he's solved the "riddle of the mirror" test. They may not call it that, but they may be aware it has some kind of significance when they encounter someone without a reflection, and have instructions from some ancient times(to even them) when they encounter someone like that.

As I think about it further, I'm becoming more convinced the Kimdori are keeping another secret, and Jason solving The Riddle of the Mirror just opened another can of worms from the Kimdori side of things. But going by the closing scene with the shaman, it sounds like it was a can that needed to be opened.
All that said...
thejank wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:03 pm
Tarrin had walked worlds where science had advanced to the point where men sailed ships of
metal through the vast void of space and traveled from world to world, and wielded
weapons of such terrible power that made his own magic look pitiful by comparison.
This really seems like a reference to me of the Karinne's and their ships/weapons. The end of Revolution seems like there could be some crossover as well. Jason solves the riddle of the mirror and the Parri shaman seems to have more knowledge of the universe/multiverse than she lets on.
Well really, if you simply start talking about Nuclear Weapons, a Hydrogen Bomb could probably humble even Tarrin's own considerable power. So it doesn't need to be a specific reference to the Subjugation Universe, although Fel has now confirmed Tarrin has been here.
So with that being said, do you think the Karinnes doing something that threatens the balance? Is Jason a being spun out of entropy, like we've seen with other characters in Fel's universe? Is the Parri shaman Mother Wynn in disguise?
The Kimdori are blatantly obvious Entropics for anyone who knows what an Entropic is.

As the Generations contain Kimdori DNA, that makes them Entropics by extension.

So yes, Jason is an Entropic.

Are the Karinnes doing something to threaten the balance? Probably not. Given "the new bad" introduced in the previous book(and hinted at earlier with regard to the Benga and why Jason would want to keep them around), it would seem to me that the Karinnes are being brought forward to address that particular problem, whatever it is. They're not a threat to the balance, they're a growing power which will be used to restore balance on a universe-spanning level.
The most outlandish theory that I have is the Lieutenant Gen is actually Tarrin in disguise (this is the most unlikely).
I doubt Tarrin is Gen. Given what Fel has said, I would suspect Tarrin probably is somebody known to Jason however, the question is who. As I think about it, I'm starting to suspect Kumi might be part of Tarrin's crew. There is one other person on the Strip that I'm starting to actively suspect of being connected to Tarrin as I think further, but I'd need to re-read a lot of stuff first.

I don't think Tarrin himself is on the strip, however.
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Re: Outlandish Theories? Spoilers for Subjugation and Sennadar universes

Post by Sha`Bren »

I feel like Rahne almost has to be connected to Tarrin, or at least have some major plot twists remaining. As best I can recall, they never figured out why the Consortium sent her to to kill Kellin. Zaa said "The why of it is still a mystery, but it will present itself in time.", and I don't recall it being mentioned after that. That was right at the end of Insurrection :D

And they never found any trace of her friends or family, no old schoolmates, no old DMV records? Surely the Kimdori would have pursued her family history intensively, given she was one of only two Terran Generations at the time.

Plus, given the most recent chapter of CO, Kevin has some sort of mystical involvement... and Rahne is active in his life as well.
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Re: Outlandish Theories? Spoilers for Subjugation and Sennadar universes

Post by kyli »

So theory time. Yay!!

Unfortuately its been years since a reread and I've only read the more recent chapters once as they came out so i'm a bit rusty but lets think about this. Who is Tarrin? Someone that has a certain amount of power but isnt tied down in a poisition of long term leadership like the Denmother or Denfather are. He could be a adviser of some kind. Tarrin is also a brillient marshal artist with supernateral speed, strenght and reflexes. He is also a natural shapeshifter and could look like anything, but as a werecat, he naturally favors cats. He is also extremely likely to be in a male form. Given that info, I would guess at least a 60% chance that Tarrin is currently shapeshifted into one of those empathic felines that were found in Andromeda. Also consider that Tarrins mission could very well be protecting Jason, although Fel did say Tarrin WAS there, and WILL return, implying that he is currently not there. Jason is the MC so its likely he is the being created by entropy to restore balance. So my next guess is a 25% chance of Tarrin being a Kimdori, with the remaining 15% being any other race, Parri included. I can't guess individuals who could be Tarrin because they are likely a backround character thats not mentioned often at all and i need to reread.

As for 40000 years ago, a old race of Titans took humans off earth and transplanted them across the universe after presumably messing with their genetics, though we must now consider that magic itself could have been used and not actual genetic scientists. Humans are somewhat popular in the Tarrinverse as well I beleive. The Revelation, and by extention, Tarrin, could be on Terra, instead of Karis.

I hope Jason discovers Tarrin by seeing no reflection in the mirror. The setup is there and i can already imagine it. Fun times. Can't wait for Revelation.
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Re: Outlandish Theories? Spoilers for Subjugation and Sennadar universes

Post by DigitalMaestro »

Fel wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:53 am It's not quite so convoluted as that.

It boils down to a very simple concept, one that explains why Tarrin has been there, and will return: the Balance is threatened, and much as what happened in the Firestaff series, the correction to this imbalance has to develop over time. In other words, what's going on there is "the long game."

In fact, it started about...40,000 years ago.

Exactly how the Balance is threatened, and how this long game plays out, will unfold in Revelation. Thus, why it's called "revelation." ;)

As you can tell, the world of Subjugation is indeed part of the greater "Tarrinverse," but I'll admit that it didn't start that way. I started incorporating this concept into the overall story at the end of Insurrection. So, it has been part of the overall plot for pretty much the entirety of the series.
This has me very excited!

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Re: Outlandish Theories? Spoilers for Subjugation and Sennadar universes

Post by miraborn »

Fel wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:55 pm Tarrin has been to the Subjugation universe.

You've already seen him. You just didn't know it at the time.

And you will see him again.

You know I just couldn't resist doing it. ;)
My guess... the elderly Shio woman seen briefly in the Emergency Response Center near Oklahoma City in Tribulation after the Consortium attack on Reglan. Something about her always tickled at the back of my mind... and we never heard of her again.
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Re: Outlandish Theories? Spoilers for Subjugation and Sennadar universes

Post by Aderi »

A few people are talking about the scattering of the Urzani (sorry, I meant Faey) 40K years ago but something else happened at about the same time . . . the arrival of the Colonists. They have a detailed history going back 40,000 years and before that, nothing. Not even a memory of why they call themselves colonists.

My outlandish theory is that GoG realized the zealots would be a threat to the balance and had Tarrin spread settlements of elves all over the universe and establish the Colonies. Perhaps the colonists will be able to use their natural empathy to dissuade some of the zealots. We'll see.

As for the Subjugation world's location with respect to the core, I'm certain that it is very far away. So far away that there is no magic. Everything that we've seen is an example of psionics which are established as a different discipline in the lore. Not even the shaman display abilities that aren't in the AD&D 2nd ed. psionics handbook.

Speaking of shaman, did anyone notice that the Parri shaman described her understanding of reality in exactly the same way that Kyven Steelhammer does? I probably wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't re-read the Walker series just before finishing Revolution. Also, when the shaman say they can talk to a planet, are they talking to the elder god of a magic dead world? Does GoG create an elder for each universe/plane or for each crystal sphere within that universe? I'd be very surprised if Fel didn't have a passing familiarity with SpellJammer lore.

To borrow from George Carlin, "These are the the thoughts that kept me from getting into the really good schools."
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