Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

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MartinK
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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by MartinK » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:23 pm

GotToGo wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:02 pm
You two do know that 98% of the tech in question is fully controled by two races, the Karinnes and the Kimdori? The Kimdori have controlled their secrets almost forever and the Karinnes, with Kimdori's help, do the same. Hell, they are even cousins! Also, the Kimdori are on the Benga home world and spread thru out their Gov't, with their ears everywhere. Furthermore, only very few know how to engineering, manufacturing, and installation of the tech in both them.
Uh, no, that is not true at all. While the story gives the impression that all the most important stuff is purely kept secret in the hands of the Karinne - and the Kimdori aren't even an option to steal tech from in the awareness of others - that is not the case at all. The Benga have gotten their hands on the tech that existed in that scout ship that was 'found' in the milky way galaxy by the... what's it called again?... after the destruction of Karis. That already covers a lot of stuff that the new House of Karinne inherited from the old one.

Then we have lots of technology that the Karinne have come up with and had no choice but to give out to other parties. That covers the dampeners, new armor tech, the biological connection of the mind to technology and so on. If they hadn't done that the only ships capable of fighting with a chance would have been Karinne and Kimdorri. So, quite a few technologies are available to be stolen from someone other than the Karinnes. And it isn't all that important that it isn't the most efficient variantion of that technology. The Benga have a whole galaxy full of people to get to work on making tech better. One has to remember that the idea of how to do something is much, much more important than how to best build a machine out of it. Most of our current technology on earth is older than either of us. We just spend decades on perfecting it.

And then we come to the stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the Karinne. The Faey certainly use those gates extensively. FTL travel without hyperspace jumps has been known and used by several species in that galaxy so it stands to reason that it must also be used by many species in the Benga galaxy and therefore can be found on archived data from conquered races in the Benga computer network if they just went looking for it.

And besides all that, any sort of research is already halfway finished if you can just proof without a doubt that something actually IS possible in the first place. If you know it can be done, you can just focus on how its done. Best real world example was the atomic bomb. The USA had to put their best and brightest minds, both homegrown and imported from all over the world, together to get to the result. After the world knew that it was possible, everyone else had it easy. Indeed, the information on how nuclear sciences work is available in easily understandable information on the web. Thats how easy it became once you knew it was possible. I'm sure the USA would have loved to keep that knowledge secret.

And... what can the Kimdori do about inventive minds? Look at the relative manpower. The Kimdori would need to have an unimaginably large number of operatives to waste on keeping their eyes on everything in an entire galaxy. It is easy to check all people that come to Karis. It is just one planet after all. But the Kimdori couldn't even keep their eyes on the Faey to save Karis from destruction. And that should have been much, much easier to keep their eyes on than even just the major government of the Benga without taking into consideration any private corporations or factions over which the Benga government doesn't have any control over. The Faey control a few hundred worlds at best. The Benga control billions of worlds and even more systems without habitable planets in it.

On that note, even just the governing of such a huge amount of worlds, species, people alone could be said to be a miracle. They don't have stargates after all.
Rakshasa claw wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:55 pm
As to your point, no the Benga aren't likely to succeed at stealing tech via espionage. Obviously, even the Faey, and other species in the Milky Way (distance advantage vs Benga) haven't been able to do it. That doesn't mean they won't come up with a sneaky twisty plan that they believe will work. Hence the no trust.
Well, stealing from Karinne will be next to impossible considering that they already have to invest a huge amount of manpower and time into making sure that no power native to their home galaxy gets sticky fingers. Doesn't really matter if there are a few more groups and organisations that want to steal tech.
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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by kyli » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:08 am

MartinK wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:23 pm
Uh, no, that is not true at all. While the story gives the impression that all the most important stuff is purely kept secret in the hands of the Karinne - and the Kimdori aren't even an option to steal tech from in the awareness of others - that is not the case at all. The Benga have gotten their hands on the tech that existed in that scout ship that was 'found' in the milky way galaxy by the... what's it called again?... after the destruction of Karis. That already covers a lot of stuff that the new House of Karinne inherited from the old one.

Then we have lots of technology that the Karinne have come up with and had no choice but to give out to other parties. That covers the dampeners, new armor tech, the biological connection of the mind to technology and so on. If they hadn't done that the only ships capable of fighting with a chance would have been Karinne and Kimdorri. So, quite a few technologies are available to be stolen from someone otaer than the Karinnes. And it isn't all that important that it isn't the most efficient variantion of that technology. The Benga have a whole galaxy full of people to get to work on making tech better. One has to remember that the idea of how to do something is much, much more important than how to best build a machine out of it. Most of our current technology on earth is older than either of us. We just spend decades on perfecting it.

And then we come to the stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the Karinne. The Faey certainly use those gates extensively. FTL travel without hyperspace jumps has been known and used by several species in that galaxy so it stands to reason that it must also be used by many species in the Benga galaxy and therefore can be found on archived data from conquered races in the Benga computer network if they just went looking for it.

And besides all that, any sort of research is already halfway finished if you can just proof without a doubt that something actually IS possible in the first place. If you know it can be done, you can just focus on how its done. Best real world example was the atomic bomb. The USA had to put their best and brightest minds, both homegrown and imported from all over the world, together to get to the result. After the world knew that it was possible, everyone else had it easy. Indeed, the information on how nuclear sciences work is available in easily understandable information on the web. Thats how easy it became once you knew it was possible. I'm sure the USA would have loved to keep that knowledge secret.

And... what can the Kimdori do about inventive minds? Look at the relative manpower. The Kimdori would need to have an unimaginably large number of operatives to waste on keeping their eyes on everything in an entire galaxy. It is easy to check all people that come to Karis. It is just one planet after all. But the Kimdori couldn't even keep their eyes on the Faey to save Karis from destruction. And that should have been much, much easier to keep their eyes on than even just the major government of the Benga without taking into consideration any private corporations or factions over which the Benga government doesn't have any control over. The Faey control a few hundred worlds at best. The Benga control billions of worlds and even more systems without habitable planets in it.

On that note, even just the governing of such a huge amount of worlds, species, people alone could be said to be a miracle. They don't have stargates after all.
The Kimdori and the Karinnes might have pretty much impregnable security and the other empires security might pale in comparison, but that doesnt mean that their security is non-existent or even all that bad. And a complete outside empire thats 5 years away is going to find it even more difficult to penetrate the security. The only technologies that the syndicate has a good chance of getting through espionage is tech thats be commercialized and in wide use, like the cyberjacks.

And to correct you, the scout ship itself was never taken or examined. Only the technology that the Exiled took to their planet, and some of the Exiled themselves were taken. And they were taken by the Consortium, not the Syndicate. The Consortium reverse engineered the tech that they got and probably forced the captured Exiles to work for them but they didn't get much major besides real time jump engines and torsion weapons which the syndicate eventually stole.

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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by MartinK » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 am

kyli wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:08 am
The Kimdori and the Karinnes might have pretty much impregnable security and the other empires security might pale in comparison, but that doesnt mean that their security is non-existent or even all that bad. And a complete outside empire thats 5 years away is going to find it even more difficult to penetrate the security.
Without the help of Kimdori, all security is penetrable with either time or enough resources. One of the most powerful and best protected people on earth are the US presidents. Yet we have seen 4 successful assassinations and 2 suspected but unproven ones. And that is just a comparison where the protection detail only has to consider known weapons and a single species.

On the other hand, say the Kimdori want to steal some piece of technology really badly. Does anyone here doubt that they'll get their hands on it pretty quickly and with little manpower invested? I'm sure there are equally surprising and capable species in the other galaxy. And hey, if you just offer enough money, you'll have lots of takers from species those tech you want to steal as well.

And... the Karinnes only have impregnable security thanks to Kimdori. Their social structure seems to make crime non-existant. I'm sure that Karis has a police force as well as their criminals. Even Kimdori screenings can't tell who will become a criminal in the future. Few criminals today actually want to be criminals, for most it just... happens because they get into suitable situations.
And to correct you, the scout ship itself was never taken or examined. Only the technology that the Exiled took to their planet, and some of the Exiled themselves were taken. And they were taken by the Consortium, not the Syndicate. The Consortium reverse engineered the tech that they got and probably forced the captured Exiles to work for them but they didn't get much major besides real time jump engines and torsion weapons which the syndicate eventually stole.
Ah, ok. Haven't re-read the series in years. Still... everything the Consortium gained in tech can be assumed to end up in Benga hands one way or the other. Hm, if they only got tech that the Exiled took to the planet for settlement, how did they end up with torsion weapons? I'm pretty sure that no Karinne was stupid enough to take highly secretive handguns to the planet just to shoot the occasional bear when a simple projectile weapon would have served just as well - and been easier to maintain.
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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by kyli » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:31 am

MartinK wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 am
kyli wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:08 am
And to correct you, the scout ship itself was never taken or examined. Only the technology that the Exiled took to their planet, and some of the Exiled themselves were taken. And they were taken by the Consortium, not the Syndicate. The Consortium reverse engineered the tech that they got and probably forced the captured Exiles to work for them but they didn't get much major besides real time jump engines and torsion weapons which the syndicate eventually stole.
Ah, ok. Haven't re-read the series in years. Still... everything the Consortium gained in tech can be assumed to end up in Benga hands one way or the other. Hm, if they only got tech that the Exiled took to the planet for settlement, how did they end up with torsion weapons? I'm pretty sure that no Karinne was stupid enough to take highly secretive handguns to the planet just to shoot the occasional bear when a simple projectile weapon would have served just as well - and been easier to maintain.
So far as i know, the karinnes never actually had torsion weapons. Their actual weapons (particle beam and pulse weapons) were much better then torsion weapons. The Consortium probably didnt get any karinne weapons but instead simply learned a lot of new things simply from studying the karinne tech that they did get and were able to depelop a weapon from what they learned. I actually suspect the torsion weapons were made by the captured Exiled. But, IIRC, the Exiled had stripped a lot of the equipment from the scout ship, which presumably was then stolen by the Consortium. They might also have claimed a karrine dropship unless the Exiled had had the dropship return to the ship. In any case, if they would have found the scout ship, they would most definitely have taken it. Since the scout ship was still hidden in the nebula when Jason recalled it, its safe to say that the Consortium never got their hands/tentacles on it.

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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by Rakshasa claw » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:27 pm

Yeah, the Dark matter guns and Torsion weaponry came from taking lessons learned from Karinne Science and applying it in different ways to make superior weaponry. The consortium didn't get a lot of high level tech from the ancient Karinnes. However, as you said once you know it's possible that makes doing the research a lot easier because you don't have to convince people that it can be done.

The atomic bomb thing, that was actually espionage though. A traitor stole key portions of how to make one and sold it to the Russians. Wouldn't have stopped them from eventually developing one... just not that quickly. There is a lot you can screw up when it comes to developing something like an atomic bomb.

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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by kyli » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:09 pm

Rakshasa claw wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:27 pm
The atomic bomb thing, that was actually espionage though. A traitor stole key portions of how to make one and sold it to the Russians. Wouldn't have stopped them from eventually developing one... just not that quickly. There is a lot you can screw up when it comes to developing something like an atomic bomb.
There isn't a very big gap technologically when it comes to the major countries here on earth. The gap between the Karinnes and the Syndicate is probably measured in centuries at the least. I mean, maybe it didn't take the karinnes that long, but they were very good at science and developed exceptionally fast. After over a thousand years, the Imperium wasn't even able to catch up with the karinnes. It's one think for Earth scientists today to observe an alian FTL ship and therefore know that its possible, but it would still take a long time to figure out how to go FTL. Maybe it would go a bit faster because scientists would know longer be able to say "thats impossible", but it would still take quite a while to figure it out. I think the gap between the syndicate and the karinnes is like that.

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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by Rakshasa claw » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:52 pm

Oh definitely, I wasn't suggesting that they could close the gap between Karinne and the Syndicate rapidly without direct espionage. But you do have to realize that a large part of why the Imperium couldn't catch up to Karinne's tech in those 1000 years was because they didn't know anything about most of their secret tech. Granted that is also true for the Syndicate, but the biggest part of counter intelligence is preventing your opponents from even realizing just what your capabilities are.

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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by MartinK » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:17 am

kyli wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:09 pm
There isn't a very big gap technologically when it comes to the major countries here on earth.
It takes just hours to get from one side of the world to the other. Naturally, that makes trading very profitable and no nation can grow in isolation. There are also very few things that the industrialized nations don't want to see elsewhere. Heck, even nuclear power plants are for sale if you have the money. The US tries to limit the know how of atomic bomb application in reality, though that failed with North Korea and I don't believe that we can stop Iran to get there as well. The US also limits tech that is used to build missiles. SpaceX for example is unable to hire scientists that aren't homegrown americans because if you build a rocket capable of reaching space it might just as well be used as a missile.

On the other hand, the science is readily available on the internet and any nation can just go, throw a bit of money at it and develop the same tech used by SpaceX.

You need to have travel times of months between locations to keep them from being normalized in terms of technology. Though I'm now wondering how instant communications play a role in this.
The gap between the Karinnes and the Syndicate is probably measured in centuries at the least. I mean, maybe it didn't take the karinnes that long, but they were very good at science and developed exceptionally fast. After over a thousand years, the Imperium wasn't even able to catch up with the karinnes.
The House of Karinne was highly focused on technological development to the point that they tried to isolate themselves from the politics of the Faey. They were not interested in taking over worlds, earning political capital in politics on any scale and they created a place of learning for all species interested in exchange to take advantage of different ways to see the world and fresh minds.

In the end, that led to their downfall.

But one also has to consider that any House of the Faey is a major part of society. I do not think it unrealistic for one out of less than 20 houses to get so far ahead of all the others by focusing on one speciality while neglecting other areas.
It's one think for Earth scientists today to observe an alian FTL ship and therefore know that its possible, but it would still take a long time to figure out how to go FTL. Maybe it would go a bit faster because scientists would know longer be able to say "thats impossible", but it would still take quite a while to figure it out. I think the gap between the syndicate and the karinnes is like that.
Almost anything we are doing nowadays is perfecting what already works. Our best computers today are build on the same principles used 60 years ago. The mobile phone was invented at the same time the television came to be. It was just that the government had to create regulations and since a mobile phone was essentially just a walkie talkie, television got all the frequencies and it took decades longer before the first mobile phone was actually sold in the mass market.

Heck, we already have plenty of ideas on how to travel FTL. Looking at an alien FTL ship we would likely be able to tell on what principles it works and get hints on how to do it ourselves.

Now, I do not believe that there is a gap between the Syndicate and the Karinnes. The Syndicate did not have a later start than the Karinnes. They did not have an obvious way of comparison at all so the development of tech in the Syndicate certainly did not follow the same path it did for Karinne. So, I expect that there are countless small and large differences in technology between the two parties and there are most certainly also lots of stuff that the Syndicate does better than the Karinne. No doubt the Kimdori are quite busy not only establishing themselves but also wading through the countless research projects over there. What a treasure trove! I wonder how much of that is already helping the Karinne scientists without getting explicit mentions in the story.

Oh, and another point. The Syndicate has control over at least half a galaxy. That is several magnitudes larger than Karinne. No matter how ingenious Karinne scientists are, they can never rival the Syndicate. For every single Karinne R&D project the Syndicate can put up tens of thousands of independent research facilities concentrating just on that one single project.

Karinne also had the advantage of intel and time to prepare their ships to fight just one enemy. Again, the advantages of specializing against the broad application the Syndicate and the Consortium were forced into when they send their ships into the unknown and against enemies without knowing anything about that enemy. No, actually, both the Consortium as well as the Syndicate send ships build to fight each other, which is even worse than ships build with a general weapons setup so it won't do too badly no matter what it runs into.
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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by Rakshasa claw » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:34 am

Oh, and another point. The Syndicate has control over at least half a galaxy. That is several magnitudes larger than Karinne. No matter how ingenious Karinne scientists are, they can never rival the Syndicate. For every single Karinne R&D project the Syndicate can put up tens of thousands of independent research facilities concentrating just on that one single project.
This is why it's vital to never show your hand if you can help it. But overall I do agree with you. It would still take a decade or two for them to catch up, lacking any direct theft of technology... simply because regardless of the number of projects they are capable of funding R&D still takes time. It should be noted that some of the tech is progressive also, which further slows down the research. The US rocket program while we did some research ourselves in the WW2 era, we also acquired quite a bit of rocket tech from Nazi Germany... not to mention getting their actual scientists.

So basically, to compete with Karinne the Syndicate would need to research the tech they need to build the tools they need to complete the research they need... etc. Hence why I say it would take a few decades to actually catch up regardless of the number of projects. And then to actually propagate the new tech throughout their empire, which due to its large size would take a very long time all by itself.

Edit: And yes, despite the "1000 years" advantage I don't really see a few decades as being rapidly catching up... rapid would be within a few years. My opinion.

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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by GotToGo » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:19 am

MartinK wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:17 am
kyli wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:09 pm
There isn't a very big gap technologically when it comes to the major countries here on earth.
It takes just hours to get from one side of the world to the other. Naturally, that makes trading very profitable and no nation can grow in isolation. There are also very few things that the industrialized nations don't want to see elsewhere. Heck, even nuclear power plants are for sale if you have the money. The US tries to limit the know how of atomic bomb application in reality, though that failed with North Korea and I don't believe that we can stop Iran to get there as well. The US also limits tech that is used to build missiles. SpaceX for example is unable to hire scientists that aren't homegrown americans because if you build a rocket capable of reaching space it might just as well be used as a missile.

On the other hand, the science is readily available on the internet and any nation can just go, throw a bit of money at it and develop the same tech used by SpaceX.

You need to have travel times of months between locations to keep them from being normalized in terms of technology. Though I'm now wondering how instant communications play a role in this.
The gap between the Karinnes and the Syndicate is probably measured in centuries at the least. I mean, maybe it didn't take the karinnes that long, but they were very good at science and developed exceptionally fast. After over a thousand years, the Imperium wasn't even able to catch up with the karinnes.
The House of Karinne was highly focused on technological development to the point that they tried to isolate themselves from the politics of the Faey. They were not interested in taking over worlds, earning political capital in politics on any scale and they created a place of learning for all species interested in exchange to take advantage of different ways to see the world and fresh minds.

In the end, that led to their downfall.

But one also has to consider that any House of the Faey is a major part of society. I do not think it unrealistic for one out of less than 20 houses to get so far ahead of all the others by focusing on one speciality while neglecting other areas.
It's one think for Earth scientists today to observe an alian FTL ship and therefore know that its possible, but it would still take a long time to figure out how to go FTL. Maybe it would go a bit faster because scientists would know longer be able to say "thats impossible", but it would still take quite a while to figure it out. I think the gap between the syndicate and the karinnes is like that.
Almost anything we are doing nowadays is perfecting what already works. Our best computers today are build on the same principles used 60 years ago. The mobile phone was invented at the same time the television came to be. It was just that the government had to create regulations and since a mobile phone was essentially just a walkie talkie, television got all the frequencies and it took decades longer before the first mobile phone was actually sold in the mass market.

Heck, we already have plenty of ideas on how to travel FTL. Looking at an alien FTL ship we would likely be able to tell on what principles it works and get hints on how to do it ourselves.

Now, I do not believe that there is a gap between the Syndicate and the Karinnes. The Syndicate did not have a later start than the Karinnes. They did not have an obvious way of comparison at all so the development of tech in the Syndicate certainly did not follow the same path it did for Karinne. So, I expect that there are countless small and large differences in technology between the two parties and there are most certainly also lots of stuff that the Syndicate does better than the Karinne. No doubt the Kimdori are quite busy not only establishing themselves but also wading through the countless research projects over there. What a treasure trove! I wonder how much of that is already helping the Karinne scientists without getting explicit mentions in the story.

Oh, and another point. The Syndicate has control over at least half a galaxy. That is several magnitudes larger than Karinne. No matter how ingenious Karinne scientists are, they can never rival the Syndicate. For every single Karinne R&D project the Syndicate can put up tens of thousands of independent research facilities concentrating just on that one single project.

Karinne also had the advantage of intel and time to prepare their ships to fight just one enemy. Again, the advantages of specializing against the broad application the Syndicate and the Consortium were forced into when they send their ships into the unknown and against enemies without knowing anything about that enemy. No, actually, both the Consortium as well as the Syndicate send ships build to fight each other, which is even worse than ships build with a general weapons setup so it won't do too badly no matter what it runs into.


Martin K,

I think it would do you good to reread all the books written todate, because it seems your understanding doesn't make sense to me, plus a few others that have commented here, and does not seem to adhere to what the author is trying to telling us.

Let's look at few points:

1. The Karinne tech is only held by themselves and the Kimdori. And they will guard it with their lives and is on living computers that no one else can understand and which most likely would destroy themselves before giving it up.

2. The stargate tech is held by the Faey, Karines, and the Kimdori and still requires a matching gate on each side of the intend destination (gates match only one other gate). If the Syndicate had the tech and could figure out how to build immediately (doubtful), it would still take them over 2 years to get the matching gate between the two gaxlaxies and without the Karinnes or Kindori's findout (very doubtful).

3. The Kimdori are on the Syndicate Corp. world, do you real feel they can keep for long?

4. All the tech released by the Karines widely is tech that the Syndicate has or will protect themelves from the Syndicate and Consortium, plus negating hyperspace sickness, boosted armer hulls and shielding, and personnel computer interface.

It seems like you and I are reading two very diferent tales of the same books?

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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by MartinK » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:01 am

GotToGo wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:19 am
1. The Karinne tech is only held by themselves and the Kimdori. And they will guard it with their lives and is on living computers that no one else can understand and which most likely would destroy themselves before giving it up.
Indeed. Did I say otherwise anywhere? On the other hand, grab an important scientist when he is on Earth visiting family or teaching at the university and you get his knowledge. Scientists are usually not trained to withstand torture. Besides, I certainly expect the telepathic Benga to know how to get at knowledge in peoples minds without torture.
GotToGo wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:19 am
2. The stargate tech is held by the Faey, Karines, and the Kimdori and still requires a matching gate on each side of the intend destination (gates match only one other gate). If the Syndicate had the tech and could figure out how to build immediately (doubtful), it would still take them over 2 years to get the matching gate between the two gaxlaxies and without the Karinnes or Kindori's findout (very doubtful).
Indeed. And the Faey, besides their racial telepathy, are as corrupt and willing to commit crime as any other race. And their technology, scientists and the ones building that technology certainly lack protection from Kimdori. On earth, so far, no technology has been kept secret by any single nation while also in practical use.

And the question of a matching gate never comes up. If I manage to steal an actual working gate, which is pretty much impossible considering their size and certainly much, much harder than just to get your hands on the building plans, research notes, scientists or construction workers, would never end up just being used as is. It would vanish instantly into a secret reseach facility under my complete control to be taken apart. Think Area 51. Since I already have hyperspace travel - and the instantanous one at that - making sense of how to build a gate doesn't require a major technological leap in understanding, just a left turn instead of a right turn in application.
GotToGo wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:19 am
3. The Kimdori are on the Syndicate Corp. world, do you real feel they can keep for long?
Jep, they are... can keep what for long?
GotToGo wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:19 am
4. All the tech released by the Karines widely is tech that the Syndicate has or will protect themelves from the Syndicate and Consortium, plus negating hyperspace sickness, boosted armer hulls and shielding, and personnel computer interface.
Indeed. More or less that is. Have I said anything different?
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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by GotToGo » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:35 pm

MartinK,

1. You stated above "Since I already have hyperspace travel - and the instantanous one at that - making sense of how to build a gate doesn't require a major technological leap in understanding, just a left turn instead of a right turn in application." I had to bust your bubble, hyperspace travel is not instantaneous - go back and reread how long the Benga took travel between the two galaxies, hint it in years.

2. You stated above "Indeed. And the Faey, besides their racial telepathy, are as corrupt and willing to commit crime as any other race. And their technology, scientists and the ones building that technology certainly lack protection from Kimdori. On earth, so far, no technology has been kept secret by any single nation while also in practical use." - Some of the Faey maybe corrupt, but they don't share their tech with anyone else. Also there are Kimdori there watching too and on Earth also.

3. You stated above "grab an important scientist when he is on Earth visiting family or teaching at the university and you get his knowledge" - Yes, but the Benga have to get someone to the their first and they are years away, plus the University is not protected by the Kimdori as access to it is limited to those who have been vetted by them. And the Karinnes bring their people home when there is a known threat in their Galaxy. Plus there are none who have technical knowledge of the Karrine's closely guarded weapons or the new drives there on earth.

4. Even if the Benga got the Knowledge and built a star gate, it would take them years to get it between the galaxies. Also anything moving between the two galaxies is being watched closely. Doubtful at best.

5. No one's stop the Kimdori yet, what makes you think the Benga can?

6. There are only a very small handful who understand how to build the new drives for the Karrines and the Kimdori, and they are on their home worlds.

I sometimes feel like you and I have read different versions of the same books.

SYED
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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by SYED » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:52 pm

The kimdori have infiltrated the faey, a fully telepathic race while benga is only 50%, so it might be simpler.
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MartinK
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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by MartinK » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:50 am

GotToGo wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:35 pm
1. You stated above "Since I already have hyperspace travel - and the instantanous one at that - making sense of how to build a gate doesn't require a major technological leap in understanding, just a left turn instead of a right turn in application." I had to bust your bubble, hyperspace travel is not instantaneous - go back and reread how long the Benga took travel between the two galaxies, hint it in years.
Bah, please use quotes to quote me, thats what those nifty BBcodes are there for. It makes reading posts much more intuitive.

There are currently three general varaints of hyperspace travel in the books. First the slow ones which everyone with hyperspace capability uses. Then the quick one which Karinne and very few others used throughout the book. And last, the third variant where Karinne combined hyperspace travel with superluminal travel technology. What I meant with "instantanous hyperspace travel" was the second variant. I am not aware of a specific technical term to use for it so either I have long since forgotten it or there never was one. I assumed that the meaning could be taken from the topic and the sentences around it. Sorry if I assumed wrongly.
2. You stated above "Indeed. And the Faey, besides their racial telepathy, are as corrupt and willing to commit crime as any other race. And their technology, scientists and the ones building that technology certainly lack protection from Kimdori. On earth, so far, no technology has been kept secret by any single nation while also in practical use." - Some of the Faey maybe corrupt, but they don't share their tech with anyone else. Also there are Kimdori there watching too and on Earth also.
You must life in an astounding place and I wish I could move there. Your criminals seem to be surprisingly righteous and patriotic. My understanding of criminals has always been that they do not care for the society they live in, the nation that they are citizens of or anything besides their loyalty to their superior - if we talk about organized crime - and their immediate family members. And even that loyalty can be bought for the right price.

You do not even need to be a criminal to feel little loyalty to your nation. I understand tax evasion is a common practice in all the wealthiest nations on earth. Whyever would a criminal or a corrupt official stop stealing secrets and selling them to outsiders just because the outsiders happened to be of a different political entity, race or species? Besides the possibility that they don't even know and just get told some sort of story by an agent that looks to be native thanks to masks and more advanced procedures.
3. You stated above "grab an important scientist when he is on Earth visiting family or teaching at the university and you get his knowledge" - Yes, but the Benga have to get someone to the their first and they are years away, plus the University is not protected by the Kimdori as access to it is limited to those who have been vetted by them. And the Karinnes bring their people home when there is a known threat in their Galaxy. Plus there are none who have technical knowledge of the Karrine's closely guarded weapons or the new drives there on earth.
Who cares how far away the Benga are or how many years it takes? The topic was the trustworthiness of treaties the Syndicate might sign and actions taken in some sort of cold war as a consequence of said treaties.
4. Even if the Benga got the Knowledge and built a star gate, it would take them years to get it between the galaxies. Also anything moving between the two galaxies is being watched closely. Doubtful at best.
Space is biiiiig. The fleets attacking the milky way were found by analyzing communications and intel the Kimdori gathered from the other galaxy. The Karinne or Kimdori might also detect huge fleets moving close together. Will they be able to detect a single ship? What if it doesn't take the direct route, which is still a broad corridor thousands of lightyears across, but take the scenic route to avoid that corridor? Does it matter if it takes a few more years just so long as they arrive in secrecy?
5. No one's stop the Kimdori yet, what makes you think the Benga can?
One of the most important things to the Kimdori are their cousins, the House of Karinne. Yet despite having plenty of agents inside the Faey Empire as well as their various houses, they were incapable of stopping the destruction of Karis. Worse, they did not even learn of it while it was happening in time to interfere by defending Karis or spiriting away important people from Karis.

Do you believe the Kimdori are perfect and nothing can get past them?
What does a signature tell us about a person that has a signature significantly longer than the text he posted in his last post?

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kyli
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Re: Re: Retribution (chapter 6) - spoilers!

Post by kyli » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:33 am

MartinK wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:50 am

There are currently three general varaints of hyperspace travel in the books. First the slow ones which everyone with hyperspace capability uses. Then the quick one which Karinne and very few others used throughout the book. And last, the third variant where Karinne combined hyperspace travel with superluminal travel technology. What I meant with "instantanous hyperspace travel" was the second variant. I am not aware of a specific technical term to use for it so either I have long since forgotten it or there never was one. I assumed that the meaning could be taken from the topic and the sentences around it. Sorry if I assumed wrongly.
The first slow method of hyperspace travel is with relativity delay. Using that method, a trip in hyperspace might take only a couple minutes, but in real space, it takes days. If you cant wait for a certain day to come, this is the type of trip u want to go on. :wink:

The second method was nearly as big of a leap forward in hyperspace propulsion as the third method is now. It is travel without relativity delay and opened up the galaxy for the karinnes. The term you were looking for is real-time hyperspace travel.

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