Spirit Walker - Spoilers - Chapter 15

[boballab]

Lets keep Chapter 15 disscussion here instead of that 27 page monster thread.

And to start it off who here besides me believes Umbra is not a changed Arcan but a changed Female Shadowfox Monster?

[nightwing1978]

well i never thought she was a changed arcan, assumed from the beginning that she was a changed shadow fox, maybe this is how he will learn more of his shadow fox abilities

[Sage4Eros]

While it is obvious that Kyven thinks she is a changed arcan, I am in agreement that she is probably a changed Shadow Fox. I suspect that almost all of Fel's readers will believe that, but Kyven looks like he can only comprehend either humans or arcans as the basis for a changed Shadow Fox.

I also agree with nightwing1978, I hope she teaches him about his shadow powers.

[Hearly]

well i never thought she was a changed arcan, assumed from the beginning that she was a changed shadow fox, maybe this is how he will learn more of his shadow fox abilities

Actually she said a lot of her history which makes it seem like she's was a normal Arcan, Now I will say maybe the shadow fox when she made her, also gave her the knowledge that he will need?

[ANTIcarrot]

Actually she said a lot of her history which makes it seem like she's was a normal Arcan, Now I will say maybe the shadow fox when she made her, also gave her the knowledge that he will need?

She says her parents raised her and taught her to stay away from humans. Which is pretty much what animal foxes would do. It also makes for better story telling...

*A big deal in this story is that Arcans aren't animals. (Setting aside the issue that humans *are* animals...) If this 'arcan' was an animal two months ago (and in some ways still is) then that poses some interesting issues. Kyven presumably wouldn't be sexually interested in an animal shadow fox vixen if one walked in and started to hump his leg. So what's changed? By exploring Umbra's transformation Fel gets to redefine the arcans all over again, but from the other direction.

*It's possible that some or all of her mind is synthetic. If shadow foxes are as smart as animal foxes, then a part of the transformation would have been an artificial-intelligence style brain expansion. That kind of thing can go wrong in all sorts of interesting and hence entertaining ways.

*It allows for exploration as to how the arcans were originally created.

*Nightwing's suggestion about this being a logical way for Kyven to learn more powers.

[boballab]

Your people have never seen one of my children, she added lightly. They have the power to meld with the shadows, making them invisible in the night. That is how they hunt.

She put her hands on his shoulders. “Mother made me, just for you!” she said, once again.
“Who were you before she made you, child?” Firetail asked.
“I was one of her children,” she answered.

The Shadowfox Spirit claims the Shadowfox Monsters as her children and as Umbra says in that quote she is one of the Shadowfox's children and it makes sense they would call her mother.

Now since I believe she is from the Shadowfox Monsters she will know some of the Shadow powers but not all. The Shadowfox herself said that they couldn't fathom the full extent of the Shadow powers but she will be a help to him.

You are the shadow, Shaman, capable of far more than my foxes because you are more intelligent and can comprehend the abstract nature of your abilities that they cannot

Now here is a interesting thought: Umbra says the Shadowfox could only change one of them. Now what happens if Kyven is changed back to human. How is only one litter suppose to make a new Arcan race? Wouldn't that cause inbreeding? What kind of fate would that mean for Umbra?

[Cougar2k2]

I agree with everyone on the whole Umbra issue. I, as a reader, assumed she was a female shadowfox monster since she was introduced. But after reading further into the chapter I realized that none of the characters, in the story, knew. Kinda made it weird there till I reread some parts later in this chapter and thought back to what the characters know or didn't know. I think Kyven will learn a lot more from Umbra in coming chapters, especially once he realizes what she was made from, and he even has the time to learn now since the Spirit already declared him at his peak and ahead of schedule.

I don't know if it was just me but did anyone else think of the first Matrix movie when the Spirit Shadowfox was explaining the working of illusions to Kyven? How their mind could make it real and the mind caused pain/injury or whatever the illusion consisted of. That free your mind type speech Morphius gave Neo and if you are killed in the matrix then you die in real life? It's not exactly the same but thats the first thing I thought of.

[hoppy]

I don't know if it was just me but did anyone else think of the first Matrix movie when the Spirit Shadowfox was explaining the working of illusions to Kyven? How their mind could make it real and the mind caused pain/injury or whatever the illusion consisted of. That free your mind type speech Morphius gave Neo and if you are killed in the matrix then you die in real life? It's not exactly the same but thats the first thing I thought of.

This idea has been around long before the matrix.

[hoppy]

*It's possible that some or all of her mind is synthetic. If shadow foxes are as smart as animal foxes, then a part of the transformation would have been an artificial-intelligence style brain expansion. That kind of thing can go wrong in all sorts of interesting and hence entertaining ways.

I have a feeling The Shadow Fox made the shadow fox's pretty intelligent in the first place. So she had to do was give the fox an education.

[ANTIcarrot]

*It's possible that some or all of her mind is synthetic.

I have a feeling The Shadow Fox made the shadow fox's pretty intelligent in the first place. So she had to do was give the fox an education.

Darwin still applies in this world. Shadow foxes presumably look like Shadow Fox. So no hands. Their abilities would make hunting easier than for regular foxes. So they'd fall foul of the principle that the easier food is to find the dumber the eater is. Unless something is actively stopping them from being stupid, there's no reason to assume they'd have more intelligence then normal critters; quite the opposite in fact.

Regular animals (including many that humans eat, wear, and experiment on) are smarter than most people are willing to give them credit for. But no one has ever recorded an animal that can use and/or understand words like 'and' or 'but'. Umbra can. Even if she was fox-smart, or even chimp-smart, giving her that ability is not just education, it's cutting her brain open and adding new hardware.

[expedient]

I too read it as Umbra being transformed from a shadow fox.

well i never thought she was a changed arcan, assumed from the beginning that she was a changed shadow fox, maybe this is how he will learn more of his shadow fox abilities

It seems highly likely that Kyven will at least gain some insight into his shadow abilities from Umbra.

By exploring Umbra's transformation Fel gets to redefine the arcans all over again, but from the other direction.

*It allows for exploration as to how the arcans were originally created.

I agree this does give a very inviting method of introducing more material on these topics from a source other than the Loremasters.

Now, will the plan work? It could leave many of the Masked and other large purchasers of Arcans at risk if the Loremasters and others start to wonder where all these crystals are coming from. They may try to plant spies and follow the movements of Toby, at least, and his associates. If they catch on soon enough. I think that opportunists, such as thieves, will compromise Toby before the end of the summer.

I'm not sure about Kyven's fear that if the Loremasters find out about the shamans being able to create crystals they would enslave them. How could they? They couldn't use collars and they would need a significant force to subdue them without injuring them so much they cannot produce any more crystals. It's just not practical. Any shaman powerful enough to produce good crystals would surely be able to damage any cage or injure or kill those who seek to compel them.

Also perhaps the observation that the Arcans are following the wishes of the spirits helps explain why Arcans have little creativity; because they’re told what to do by the Spirits and they submit to that guidance unremittingly. Stifling their growth as a species. Much as the humans also are limiting them, they've replaced the collar of slavery for the yoke of good intentions.

[Cougar2k2]

This idea has been around long before the matrix.

Trust me, I know the concept behind the idea been around a lot longer than movie, but unfortunatly it's the first thing that came to my mind after reading about the explaination of illusions in the chapter.

[Lochar]

We all agree that Umbra is a Shadowfox Monster brought to Arcan level.

The question now, is why only one, and why are we told the Shadowfox spirit could only create one? There's a very deep meaning to this, something that if our resident Shadowfox Shaman figured out, would probably drive him to suicide.

Why could the spirit only change one? We know it wasn't a matter of finding a willing shadowfox to do so. Umbra had to be picked out of several candidates. So it's not like there were no willing Shadowfoxes to give permission to the spirit to do so.

Maybe power? After all, changing a creature into an Arcan must involve an enormous amount of energy... No, that's not right. When the spirit realized he wasn't compatible with other foxes, she immediately went to a den or whatever of Shadowfoxes to get a female for him. There was no hording of power either, as we see that Kyven continues to train his magic the whole time.

Well, what could it be? What does the Shadowfox spirit have, that she could use to create exactly one Arcan from a monster? What does she have now, that she would not have had before she had the idea to breed Kyven?

Let's look at it this way. We have three states of life. Human, which we'll call State A. Arcan, we'll call State B. Monster/Animal, we'll call State C.

Arcans are human/animal hybrids basically, right? Or in Kyven's case, Human/Monster hybrid. So let's say that State B is a midpoint state between A and C.

Kyven was changed from State A to State B. The Shadowfox Spirit took something from Kyven to make him an arcan. His humanity.

Umbra when the other way. She went from State C to State B. She was already a monster, so it's not the monster side of the equation that was required, but the human side. Which the shadowfox spirit has exactly one of. Kyven's humanity.

The Shadowfox spirit gave the shadowfox monster humanity, but not enough to become human. Only the Human/Monster hybrid that is the Arcan.

The spirit gave Umbra Kyven's humanity. Which is why the spirit in an earlier chapter said it wouldn't be possible to switch between human and Arcan without help. Because at that point, the spirit has already given away Kyven's actual humanity. Kyven would have to have someone else become a Shadowfox Arcan before he could become human again.

[Hearly]

Now I know what the shadow fox said, but Umbra also said that she was created for Him to breed, now if she was already a shadow fox, why would she need to be created for him?

I think everyone is trying to read way too much into it..

[Mizriath]

Now I know what the shadow fox said, but Umbra also said that she was created for Him to breed, now if she was already a shadow fox, why would she need to be created for him?

I think everyone is trying to read way too much into it..

A shadow fox is a "monster" or animal ... not an arcan.. She is converted to an arcan shadow fox for him. Even if she is a shadow fox, I doubt she would be able to teach him much about the other powers of the shadow fox as she herself might know but not too much about it. Since the shadow fox is created in the first place by the spirit, I am sure the level of intelligence is much higher than a dumb animal. That is my take.

But I am wondering about his level of power in the sense of drawing the spirit power whether he has even surpassed the other arcan shamans. Power not in the endurance level and capacity but the speed of it. He seem to be able to change his illusions faster and faster which is a factor of imagination but also speed.

I am also trying to reconcile as to what is illusion, as in he can create a picture that is realistic and moves to convince others that it is reality. Dos he really create a picture/projection that is illusionary Or must he also be able to influence people's mind in some ways to make them believe that their eyes is seeing something.